How Can Science Fiction Help Design Better Science and Tech Policies?

Careless algorithms, disaster refugees, computer girlfriends: Many predicaments of our time came to life in science fiction long before they became science reality. Fiction can be a tool to explore the consequences of technological change more fully; as Ed Finn writes in Issues, “Good science fiction does not dream up just the automobile, but also the traffic jam.” Putting the future in context—in its own imagined world—forces writers to grapple with questions and consequences that could otherwise easily be glossed over (and often are).

How can we use fiction to fix our current “traffic jams”? Issues is partnering with Arizona State University’s Center for Science and the Imagination on Future Tense Fiction, a speculative fiction project that uses imagination to examine how science, technology, policy, and society might shape our futures. Join us on Thursday, February 20 at 3 p.m. ET for a conversation celebrating the launch with Ed Finn, William Hurd, Cole Donovan, and Malka Older, moderated by Lisa Margonelli, about how imagining fictional worlds can inspire us to make better realities.

Panelists

• Ed Finn, founding director, Center for Science and the Imagination at Arizona State University.
• Will Hurd, vice president of strategy at CHAOS Industries; former member of Congress.
• Malka Older, faculty associate at Arizona State University; executive director of Global Voices; and author of Infomocracy and more. 
• Cole Donovan, former assistant director for international science and technology, Office of Science and Technology Policy. 
• Lisa Margonelli (moderator), editor-in-chief, Issues in Science and Technology.

Watch the Recording

Chat Transcript

(This transcript has been lightly edited for formatting and to remove emails, locations, and logistical information that are no longer relevant.) 

Kimberly Quach: Welcome everyone! We’ll get started in a few minutes. While we wait, check out Ed Finn’s piece, “Step Into the Free and Infinite Laboratory of the Mind,” for some ideas about how to use science fiction in science policy.

Faizan Abbasi: great to see Malka and others after a long while:)

Joey Eschrich: Hello everyone! You can read Future Tense Fiction stories and essays, and watch interviews with our fiction authors, at https://issues.org/futuretensefiction

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: It’s really lovely to see people joining from so many different places around the country and the world! Future Tense Fiction has published stories from authors from Mexico, Nigeria, Canada, Norway, Hong Kong, Sri Lanka, and many other countries. Here’s a story we recently republished from our archives by Andrea Chapela, a sci-fi author from Mexico: The Wait.

Andrew Irvin: You didn’t mention the Pacific. The Pacific represents the front line – ground that cannot be given up without losing the fundamental nuance of humanity – hundreds of languages and cultures, peoples, bound to place. We cannot lose this cultural space without losing our fundamental humanity – this is the frontline. It should be resourced as such. (@Cole, but for for all to consider.)

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Malka wrote a Future Tense Fiction story on technology and parenting, you can find it here. It really plays with the relational/emotional dynamics she’s mentioning.

Olaf Isele: Cool, thanks for the link

Hesper Khong: Oo thank you for the link Mia! Will def check it out :3

Andrew Irvin: Noir is also a product of the film Hays Code and infusing darkness and violence into imagery – it’s a product of psychological effects understood through montage in Film, and has been employed to social architecture exercises since the 1920s. How are we responding with a film and literary sci-fi “brillant” as a response to noir? (i.e. – Solarpunk). Modeling behavior and practice that acknowledges what is possible if we address the bad actors and revise our social contract?

Andrew Irvin: How do we creative narrative tension and conflict in our sci-fi that captures attention for the right ideas without highlighting violence and oppression as the source of conflict?

Zachary Pirtle: I’ve heard old NASA curmudgeons complain that science fiction about space makes it all look too easy! Which decreases sympathy for the real-world challenges of building space systems.

Joal Stein: Narrative = epistemological cultural technology for making sense of the world?

Jill Latchana: Narrative disorder, I’ve never heard of that! How fascinating!

Kimberly Quach: Malka wrote a short story titled “Narrative Disorder” and also a response to the story. You can find both on Fireside.  This idea is also discussed in her novel Infomocracy and its sequels.

Nick Diakopoulos: We do a lot of anticipatory governance using scenario-writing (related but not exactly sci-fi) (e.g. see here: How Scenario Writing Could Help Us Build a Safer AI Future) — one issue we often encounter is plausibility. How do the panelists think about this issue of plausibility in sci-fi stories? How to keep it grounded *enough*?

Hesper Khong:  I’m currently reading Parable of the Talents by Octavia E. Butler, do people have other recs from around the world? I’ve enjoyed N. K. Jemisin’s books as well.

Kimberly Quach: Thank you for sharing Andrew! Are there stories and authors from the Pacific that you recommend, science fiction or otherwise?

Tor Binford: @Zachary I’ve also heard Kip Thorne gave Christopher Nolan headaches (to put it lightly) when developing Interstellar and helped progress research modeling for black holes, so it also depends on the motivations and resources

Olaf Isele: Some people think the Moon landings are SciFi and fake. If only I could take a skeptic to a telescope and have them look at the US flag on the lunar surface. So far that’s not possible. Such an ironic problem.

Andrew Irvin: Gina Cole, from New Zealand, and Solomon Enos, from Hawaii, are both doing fantastic work. There’s a Pacific Indigneous Eco-Literatures collection available here.

Kate Beecroft:  There are claims of a growth in science fiction of 15-25% in the traditional publishing sector between 2019-2024. Some estimates suggest a 40-60% increase in sci-fi titles on self publishing platforms.

Kimberly Quach:  @Andrew Thank you!

Olaf Isele: Wow, that’s great. Scifi means dreaming and digesting presence and history. So dreaming is alive and well. Woohoo!!!

Joey Eschrich:  In terms of science fiction from the Pacific, Future Tense Fiction published “Ride,” a story by Linda Nagata, an author from Hawai’i, back in 2021.

Surekha Davies: A truly utopian future would have to be a Monstertopia: my piece on the University of California Press blog, around my new book, HUMANS: A MONSTROUS HISTORY.

Olaf Isele: To Will’s point… if tech (AI) frees up time that we can spend in social interactions, that is a vital element of humanity’s future.

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Just in case you missed it from earlier in the chat, here’s Ed’s article.

Tobias Gibson: If the free time equates to social interactions.

Kate Beecroft:  Will we get an hour back or will it be filled up with other so-called efficiency maximising developments?

Shana DeClercq:  reality-based futurism that is neither dystopian nor utopian can sometimes be called ‘thrutopian’

Surekha Davies:  At what cost? A more urgent and holistic way to save people time might be to fix the health insurance mess in the US: people spending hours on the phone, stressed about debt…

Malka Older:  Tech that frees up time for social interactions, like washing machines

David Guston:  @Nick D — wondering through what literature/mechanism you deploy term of “anticipatory governance”? (I have a vested interest there, but here is a piece that works from SF and history of S&T that develops an argument for anticipatory governance.

Faizan Abbasi: every utopia has a dystopian element and wise versa

Hesper Khong: I’ll have to check these out, thank you Joey and Andrew! ^.^

Olaf Isele: Yuval Harari (in Sapiens) points out that most or all “time-saving” innovations have actually led to more dependence of humans, and worries and anxieties, on those things and leading to more time commitment and not actually freeing us from daily drag.

Andrew Irvin: Also to Will’s point – AI is being offered as the mental labor equivalent of driving a Hummer to the neighborhood park instead of walking. It’s not being properly guardrailed and it’s blowing our carbon budget at an accelerating rate.

WALTER DI MANTOVA: Nowadays dystopian visions are easy — and a sign of intellectual laziness

Olaf Isele: Yep, Andrew, agree, sadly.

Molly Dean:       I did these and it’s super fun and reflective!

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Here are CSI’s postcards from the future.

Olaf Isele: How do I make my future self write a letter to myself in the present time? (Or did i misunderstand Ed?)

Hesper Khong: Such a poignant point Andrew. AI has been used to directly target and murder Indigenous communities as well. The climate and human impacts of AI are not worth its existence imo.

Andrew Irvin: @Ed – this is absolutely what everyone needs  to be engaging in, at large, in media generation and societal discourse.

Om Gawali: I don’t find dystopias lazy. They seem to be more accessible.

Deji Olukotun:  Loved this conversation – sad I have to leave for another meeting. Very inspiring!

Kate Beecroft:  @Andrew, at the Science Fiction Economics Lab we’re doing this, but limiting the field to ‘economic science fiction’ I.e. centering how the political economies of the future will function

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Here are some other exercises and curriculum resources on teaching/practicing imagination from CSI.

Olaf Isele: DEI… Am I naive in assuming that most or all folks here are envisioning a future where purposeful DEI policies have created a fairer society (societies worldwide)?

Surekha Davies:  Tech bros devising LLM-based genAI aren’t saving us us from boring stuff: they are stealing from people who create and cutting humanity off from being human.

Andrew Irvin: The bot-based internet – non-human activity, is now using more emissions than either international shipping or aviation. Everyone is just revving their computers at each other trying to swarm each other’s senses – it’s a dystopian practice we’re not actively de-escalating. We’re computing away our ecosystem viability at a massive scale.

Tor Binford: re: dystopian fiction being intellectually lazy. Is it as a concept/sub-genre “lazy” or is it just a known best-seller? How much of the contemporary scientific fiction we see is also a matter of what sells and what publishers think will sell? And how does that effect how we look at science fiction/how we speculate at the future? “we” in the sense of the general reader who might pick something off the shelf versus those deep in the genre.

Tor Binford: (also: the “general reader” being its own subset of folks since many folks don’t enjoy reading, period)

kdc cst: @Suerkha agreed the technologies are not neutral in their design and based on the ‘neoliberal’ exploitation and individiualism which also steals intimacy , attention , creativity our very human attribtues have become marketable

Andrew Irvin: Sam Altman strikes me as next year’s Sam Bankman-Fried. He is obviously running a massive data/IP heist that never should’ve been legislatively allowed to take place and the wheels are about to come off.

Malka Older:     Comparison of movie scifi and real information from AI institutes, with great dataviz (from a few years ago)

Ruthanna Emrys: I don’t think any subgenre is inherently “lazy.” There are plenty of lazy dystopias out there, but also some that seriously engage with the risks of how technology combines with politics. There are also lazy utopias that don’t think through their implications.

Surekha Davies: What Andrew Irvin said – just now and earlier about AI and energy.

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Here are some Future Tense Fiction stories focused on AI that may be of interest: (1) The Funniest Centaur Alive (2) The Trolley Solution (3) Little Assistance and (4) The Skeleton Crew

Joal Stein: Thanks for answering my question! Agreed on Ed’s point that these narratives tend to drive what gets built – we need better stories of what a good, and different future with AI even looks like.

Nick Diakopoulos: @Joal Stein — we used future scenarios to prompt people to think about underlying values in this study.

Andrew Irvin:    So many fantastic links, @Mia! Thank you for sharing!

kdc cst:               best tech analysis ever – Technology is Not Values Neutral: Ending the Reign of Nihilistic Design

Surekha Davies:  Meredith Broussard came up with a powerful concept: technochauvinism, the idea that a techno solution is always best. Today, we’re looking at technofascism.

Stevienna De Saille: What I’m hearing from several of the panelists is that same use of “AI” to cover a range of applications, just the same as those who hype it. GenAI is a set of applications with immense problems, and the conflation is both making it harder for actual application of algorithmic analysis (for example examining x-ray) to be properly understood and hiding the fact that much of this is not new — complex algorithms being given decision-making capacities has been with us for some time (and often to the detriment of the same people who always get the short end of the stick).

Sasha Anaya:   AGREED with Malka

Surekha Davies:  Why don’t the tech bros have licenses before they release poorly tested language-based tech that’s polluting the infosphere?

Andrew Irvin: Yep, fiction isn’t the problem – don’t let it distract from the dystopia taken place in our reality.

Surekha Davies: Yep.

N E: @Sureka @Andrew et al, ^This^

Jocelyn Garcia: We’re doing Fiction Fridays with Small Wars Journal Now! (: hope y’all would consider writing some fiction for our fiction Friday or for our next fiction contest!

Andrew Irvin:    Financialization of thought and value capture by bad-faith individuals creating chaos in the system to take advantage – that’s why there’s no status quo.

Surekha Davies:              What we mean by human is being narrowed by stories about tech. It’s one of the things I wrote about in my new book, HUMANS: A MONSTROUS HISTORY, just out this month from the University of California Press.

Joshua Simulcik:            Those narratives become popular that are allowable within hegemonic discourse, even as examples of allowable dissent.

WALTER DI MANTOVA: How did we come to the point that dystopias are easy to write when so much prior sci fi was utopian?

Olaf Isele:          AMAZING… FYI… Envisioning and planning our future. The Ukrainian Institute for the Future is holding a workship “Ukraine in 2035” later today, asking questions like we do today for specific planning of Ukraine policies.

Olaf Isele:          (Mea culpa… the Ukraine 2035 even was yesterday.)

Ruthanna Emrys: Those are certainly things that disrupt status quos and make things worse, but it’s hard to imagine a truly stable society. The universe is change.

Aaron Thompson: Like the rise of rationalizing eugenics, especially in the tech discourse.

Kate Beecroft:  @surekha thanks, there is also Technofeudalism by ex finance minister of Greece, Yanis Varoufakis who also wrote Sci Fiction novel ‘Another Now’

Nick Diakopoulos: Dystopia / Utopia is all a matter of perspective backed by someone’s values.

Andrew Irvin:    ^ Varoufakis is certainly worth the read.

Carver Wilcox: “We believe that by speculating more, at all levels of society, and exploring alternative scenarios, reality will become more malleable and, although the future cannot be predicted, we can help set in place today factors that will increase the probability of more desirable futures happening. And equally, factors that may lead to undesirable futures can be spotted early on and addressed or at least limited.” – Speculative Everything, Dunne & Raby

Faizan Abbasi: Great conversation! Thank you all for your presence today. I would love to connect on LinkedIn and carry on the conversations. Have a great rest of your week!

David Guston:  I’ve been trying to get OECD to address the role of SF and other cultural productions in S, T and I policy….

Surekha Davies: @Kate – thanks! I think I heard YV speak on The Ezra Klein show a year ago.

Malka Older: puns: the other key form of science communication

Andrew Irvin: @David – would love to know if your approach is working.

Rose Paquet: The Value Sensitive Design Lab at the University of Washington has great resources for considering the role of values in the design of tools, tech, and policies:

Olaf Isele: Good push, David. I’d love to assist that if I can as a regular person/engineer.

Richard Cupitt: When the HBO Chernobyl series was played first in Argentina, the nuclear regulator saw a big increase in public inquiries.

David Guston:  @Andrew – they were conceptually open to it, but needed to work the financing to commission a white paper. I can go back to them with the popularity of this event and push some more.

Kate Beecroft:  @Andrew @Surekha – this is actually less about Musk as a wider discussion of technological growth and capitalism by two leading Sci Fi authors, Varoufakis and Cory Doctorow

Andrew Irvin:    Financing to commission a white paper? XD Everyone needs to be paid to put their thoughts on paper – consulting our way into oblivion instead of taking emergency action.

Andrew Irvin:    Thanks, @Kate!

Joal Stein: We’re recruiting sci-fi and speculative fiction authors to contribute short stories and scenario-based questions to a representative sample of the global public to steer AI policy. Email me if you’re interested – joal@cip.org. For context – globaldialogues.ai

Surekha Davies:  @Kate – thanks! Btw I’m on BlueSky as @drsurekhadavies.bsky.social for anyone who is there. I think I’ve found Andrew Irvin.

David Guston:  @Andrew – that’s the way OECD works, alas. But that is arguing internally for budget to do it.

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Speaking of Cory Doctorow, Kate, here’s his Future Tense Fiction story, which was published in 2019:

Andrew Irvin:    The argument is valid, so you’ll get there once you maneuver the red tape @David!

Kate Beecroft:  Amazing @mia, thanks. Pretty topical.. but I think the proof is in the pudding about dystopia future casting in “Radicalized” (2019) by Doctorow which deals with insurance company executives facing violence after denying claims.

Andrew Irvin: Also, Cory Doctorow’s Chokepoint Capitalism with Dr. Rebecca Giblin.

Lynne Peterson: Are there any new sci-fi books about present-day innovations in nuclear power?  The old paradigm is still a barrier.  Your “Linking to this moment in culture” could be helpful for many to reframe this newer, potentially safer energy source.

Joal Stein:  All policy is an articulation of the future, imo

Andrew Irvin: Our regulatory environment is not responding to reality in ways that can prevent a dystopian present, let alone future.

Joshua Simulcik: I’m looking for participants in my Ph.D. dissertation study that uses speculative fiction to examine the ideologies of the U.S. military science and technology community. Anyone part of that group who’s interested in contributing, please contact me.

Henry Hansen: I work in ecosystem restoration and I have found from personal experience that science fiction helps start the conversation for what’s possible but when it’s complemented with concept art it becomes visionary.

Shana DeClercq: Hey everyone – great to hear so many ideas today. I’m a communicator in the nonprofit and climate/social justice sector, and I use futurism to shape public narratives and to inspire policy and personal action. I hope we can connect on LinkedIn.

David Guston:  @Joshua, you might speak with Brian David Johnson, a futurist who works closely with US military and intelligence types

Joshua Simulcik: @David Thanks for the recc!

Phil Jordan:  Great Panel! I have to leave and teach a class, but I would to connect to SF-Tech interested Folks in any way, shape or form. Here a bit of my work Here my LinkedIn.

Richard Cupitt: People might enjoy the frequent stories from Nature – Futures: Science Fiction from Nature.

Mia Armstrong-Lopez: Joshua, you may also find this story interesting: Collateral Damage. It’s written by Army vet and sci-fi writer Justina Ireland, and explores the future of robots/drones in combat.

Andrew Irvin:    I’m working on near-future hard sci-fi for my PhD. – still in the midst of interviews, but folks can find me on LinkedIn.

Olaf Isele: Far future, in terms of millions or billions of years in many ways is more predictable than the near future.

Nick Diakopoulos: Another interesting angle to this is that visions of the future vary around the world. Underscores the representation problem. As a case study: Anticipating AI’s Impact on Future Information Ecosystems

Andrew Irvin:    Star Trek hinges upon aliens seeing our lightspeed capability and elevating humans to a greater galactic citizenship, though…

Joshua Simulcik: Thanks, @Mia

Rose Paquet:    Another great resource is the work of Dr. Mike Kate

Olaf Isele: Andrew… I think a lot of the Star Trek world especially sociologically, are not dependent on FTL or even aliens.

Surekha Davies: Humanity today is not even able to come together to deal with a pandemic of terrestrial origins. We failed the actual aliens test.

Paul Bowman: maybe a decline in u.s.-authorized genocides, i don’t know

Laurel Bingman: Andrew, I disagree. I think a lot of the Protopia nature of Star Trek (Original Series) is social- seeing people of all races and genders working as officers on the Enterprise, which would have been unheard of in the 60s.

Surekha Davies:   Some of the best science fiction is not simply about science, but also about society. Star Trek TNG and DS9 were excellent at modelling better ways for people to relate to one another and to better themselves, while using the future as a foil that made the social arguments more palatable. Yet some of the most damaging tech today is propped up with narratives that pretend tech is “just a tool” independent of the society of its designers, legislators, and users.

Indigo Strudwicke: This has been such a great chat for finding work and connecting with people in this space. I’m doing a PhD in exploring the role of story as a tool to facilitate imaginative conversations about science policy challenges, would love to connect with folks on LinkedIn and @indyindigo.com on Bluesky!

Surekha Davies:  I’m @drsurekhadavies.bsky.social – and surekhadavies.org

Lynne Peterson:   I am a chemist working on mercury in the food chain. If anyone has any resources, please reach out.

Andrew Irvin:    @Malka – 100%! Community cohesion and building a strong ensemble is how we function as a just and equitable narrative tale in-process.

Kate Beecroft:  @Malka.. related. Science fiction is about strange rules, while fantasy is about special people. According to Chiang, science fiction is the literature of change, while fantasy is the literature of changelessness.

Malka Older:     Also for protopias definitely read Ruthanna Emrys’s books!

Andre Campello: Thanks for this seminar. I am an attorney with a special interest in technology. I’m sharing my contact information in case anyone would like to reach out. Thank you!

Shana DeClercq: thanks for the Bluesky reminder. I am at @solveforbetter.bsky.social

Olaf Isele: Yep, stories and myths about abstract world beyond our physical immediate world are the key of humanity and key to finding common ground

Ruthanna Emrys:  Oh, thank you! Really enjoying this conversation – it dovetails with things I’ve been thinking about re what we actually do with the SF we read and write.

Om Gawali: Wow, what a great spread of literature.

Kate Beecroft:  It’s been great! Would love to connect further on LinkedIn

Ruthanna Emrys: @r-emrys on Bluesky, and on LinkedIn in my social science hat

Tor Binford:        “If Science Fiction inherently about how things might one day be different, and Fantasy is about how things might’ve been different, then Horror is about how things really are.” – Simon Strantzas

Zachary Pirtle: I know Ed was speaking just very briefly, but I’m unsure on how much I want all of us to have a ‘shared story’. It can be good if many of us are pursuing divergent stories (which we often are). That is hard, but by making the underlying disagreements more transparent in narrative form, then we may be more likely to sort it out via the wonderful messiness of democracy

Lynne Peterson: Thank you for a fantastic discussion.

Richard Cupitt: Thanks for the great panel and the chat.

Laurel Bingman: Thank you so much! This has been really fascinating!

Joal Stein: Really wonderful conversation – thank you all

Andre Campello: Thank you!

Surekha Davies: Thank you!

Olaf Isele: Thank you, Lisa

Fatima Tari: thank you so much

Andrew Irvin: Thanks for putting this together!

Lydia Rasmussen: Thank you!

Molly Dean: Thank you!

V.M. Ayala: thank you!

Nicole Marrocco: Thanks!

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