Music and Health: Your Brain on Music

By J. D. Talasek, Sweta Adatia, Fred Johnson

What happens in your brain when you hear your favorite song?

In our Music and Health podcast miniseries, we’re exploring how music affects our minds, bodies, and communities. On this episode, host J. D. Talasek is joined by Sweta Adatia, a neurologist practicing in Dubai, and Fred Johnson, a community engagement specialist and artist in residence at both the National Academy of Sciences and the Straz Center for Performing Arts. They discuss their paths into combining music and science, how music impacts the brain, and how music can go beyond entertainment to create stronger, healthier communities.

This series is produced in collaboration with Susan Magsamen and Leonardo journal.

Resources

• Listen to Fred Johnson’s version of “Nature Boy,” and check out his website and his Instagram to listen to more of his music and mantras, and to see Johnson in an upcoming show. 
• Visit Sweta Adatia’s website to learn more about her work.
• Listen to previous miniseries episodes:
  • The Creative Arts and Healing with Renée Fleming and Susan Magsamen.
  • Dancing Together with David Leventhal and Constantina Theofanopoulou.

Transcript

J.D. Talasek: Welcome to The Ongoing Transformation, a podcast from Issues in Science and Technology. Issues is a quarterly journal published by the National Academy of Sciences and Arizona State University.

In our miniseries, Music and Health, we’re exploring how music impacts our minds, bodies, and communities. In this episode, we ask: what happens in the brain when you hear your favorite song?

I’m J.D. Talasek, director of Cultural Programs at the National Academy of Sciences. I’m joined by Dr. Sweta Adatia, a neurologist practicing in Dubai, and Fred Johnson, who is a community engagement specialist and artist-in-residence at the Straz Center for Performing Arts, and performing artist-in-residence at the National Academy of Sciences. I’m delighted to talk with them about their paths into combining music and science, how music impacts the brain, and how music can go beyond entertainment to create stronger, healthier communities. Sweta, Fred, welcome.

Fred Johnson: Good to be here. Thank you.

Sweta Adatia: Thank you for having us.

Talasek: Sweta, let’s start with you. I’d like to dig into origin stories for both of you, but Sweta, what is your path that has led you to the work that you are doing today? You are an accomplished neurologist with an interest in alternative medicine. You have a background in music, and you speak seven languages, and not to mention you are an award-winning table tennis player. All of these things have to have come together in some sort of wonderful manner for you to do what you do today. Can you tell us how you got here?

The brain has been my passion. I call it romance with the brain.

Adatia: Absolutely. Thank you, first of all, for having me here, J.D., and also Fred. Let me go back to my childhood. So I come from India, and my parents were both medical doctors, and serendipitously I got a lot of marks. There are two kinds of marriages in India, love marriage and arranged marriage. There are two kinds of careers, love career and arranged careers. Now, for me, because there was a lot of marks, I don’t know where to go, so I was just pushed into medicine, but there was a condition which I posted to my parents that, “After a while, if I don’t like it, can I quit it?” And my parents were like, “Yeah, we’re fine. Go ahead and try it out.” So with the pretext of trying medicine, I go into medicine, I complete my medical school, and then there was a point in time, “Where do I go next?”

Somehow the function of the brain just sort of stuck in one of the lectures that I was attending, I’m like, “Oh, my God, this brain sounds to be something phenomenal, and I want to learn more about it.” Since that, 25 years long, the brain has been my passion. I call it romance with the brain. When I started to understand certain nuances of the brain, it’s like little mathematics, once you know the formula you can crack open the formula. Exactly the same thing happened for me. I understood the underpinnings of how a brain performs.

Talasek: When we talk about cross-disciplinary work, what you said reminds me that our brain is not built that way, it doesn’t function that way. We produce knowledge through studying disciplines, but our mind really is an integrative organ, it brings all of these experiences that we’ve had. I’d like to turn to you, Fred, and ask you to tell us a little bit about how you got where you are in this amazing place as a performing artist down at the Straz Center.

Johnson: For me, I can’t ever remember a time where the sound of my voice was not an important part of my either feeling centered or not feeling centered. What I mean by that is the first five and a half years of my life, I was what they refer to in the state of New Jersey as a ward of the state. I was essentially an orphan, also in and out of foster homes. But in those early developmental years, where I didn’t have the blessing of being able to consistently be held and nurtured, and centered with a family structure, creation guided me to connect to the sound of my own voice. The way that I put myself to sleep, the way that I felt comfortable was to always have—and sometimes an inaudible sound to those around me—but this frequency and vibration that I could feel within me that really, that was really my nurturer. That was my two things: the sound of my voice, and the need to rock because the body has a need for sound and motion.

When I began to then sing, when I began to send my voice out into the world, people connected to me for the very first time.

Those two elements were an important part of my comfort zone, how I knew that I was balanced or that I was out of balance, and that was kind of a personal journey for me. Thankfully, at the age of five and a half I was adopted, but those developmental years, I was connected to the sound of my voice, the sound of my breath, the movement of my body. Then when I began to then sing, when I began to send my voice out into the world, people connected to me for the very first time. The sound of my voice within me, and then the sound of my voice in the world was kind of my meter for, “Is everything okay? How do I socialize? How do I connect?” I mean, that was really the foundation. There was never ever a point where I wasn’t really connected to my voice.

Then moving into publicly performing, publicly singing, and also growing up a little brown guy in America, that struggle to find my identity caused me to want to deepen into where did I come from. Over the years, I was able to be connected to my African roots, and begin to understand that a lot of what the natural phenomena of my beingness, of the chanted voice, the voice that connects to others, the voice that creates a safe space for others, became a part of my world of being.

This is what excited me so much when I first read and heard your voice, Dr. Sweta, in the world of the art of sound, sounding and movement, and music, and then to now be able to couple it with how you so beautifully combine, and can help to really answer many of these questions about these are the realities of the frequency and vibration of our voices in our brain. To be able to work with J.D. and folks at the National Academy of Sciences, and with science and researchers now being a part of that conversation. I think my experiences in life, and what I’ve learned from master teachers from an artistic or a creative stand point of view gives me an opportunity to be poised to kind of actualize, and create experiences that move people into feeling within them.

Then as scientists, the science and research community is able to see, “Yes, this is what’s happening in the brain, this is what’s happening in the neurological system.” But this beautiful marriage or coming together of ancient wisdom, so that creative expression or sound, and song or movement, and dance is not just entertainment, but it’s also a natural aesthetic entrainment into our ability to be whole and complete, and joyous in creative ways.

Adatia: I think you touched upon some of the beautiful points. Most people consider that sound or dance or any sort of movement is entertainment, but I think there is much more behind the scenes. It can also become a part of education. It can become a part of enlightenment. It can become a part of entrainment. I was just, last month, with a group of dancers. It was a national dance seminar, and everybody was talking about oneness through dance, what is happening in the brain when I see a dancer who is dancing, or when I watch a dancer on a television show, and very interesting stuff has been found out. If we talk about the science, so for example, the dancer is performing, or you as a musician who is performing, there is a certain set of the brain cells which is firing. There are certain areas in the brain which light up, if I put your brain into a scanner, into a big, huge functional MRI, I see certain things lighting up.

Most people consider that sound or dance or any sort of movement is entertainment, but I think there is much more behind the scenes.

Now the interesting thing, what has been found is I, who is watching your music or listening to your music, or I am watching the dance, almost the same number of brain cells would be active in my brain, which we call the mirror neurons. The interesting thing is that you are in a certain state of that feeling of joy, or feeling of bliss, and if you are a musician of that level, you can also move my feeling to that level, and that is the transfer of joy or the transfer of bliss, which can happen through music. Now the beautiful thing is, I may have been trained in Indian classical music, you may have been trained in western classical music, but when we talk of notes, we are all one when it comes to the seven notes. So that is what excites me, and that is what is so beautiful, that every single brain, irrespective of the caste, creed, culture, it really does not matter where do we come from, has the same reference points in the brain, has the same effect which comes out in the brain. It just absolutely fascinates me.

Johnson: Yeah, it’s phenomenal. I mean, I’ve been very fortunate in the past few years to work in alignment with a number of science and research projects, and actually was introduced to the National Academy of Science through a project that was being done around the importance of the cultivation and care for the Gulf of Mexico. So I was very, very fortunate a number of years ago to study with a phenomenal oral historian, dancer, Baba Ishangi was his name. He was from Ghana, West Africa. So in the ancient traditions, the role of what is called the griot or the jali in West African tradition is that long before words were written down, all of the history, all of the activities that went on in the community, they were really sung. So people became accustomed to learning through the song, learning through song.

Oftentimes, before the community would come together to talk about issues that need to be dealt with, the griot or the jali would chant, would create song, would create story, story for the children, story for the community, people would dance together, so that there was no division between the practical application, and the well-being and greater good of the community, and the joy of being together, and the philosophy was that it really aligned the heart. For instance, the jali would go from telling a story or singing a story, and there’s a power in the shift that the, I think, and you can speak to this specifically, but there’s a difference between me speaking to you, and then me shifting into a place where I begin to sing. You feel my breath and my voice in a different way, but if I were to tell the story of meeting Dr. Sweta, and being with J.D. together, to share that, you see, it feels totally different, and so the frequency and vibration is different.

In ancient tradition, everything that happened in the community was great fodder for song because it was felt that it was received in a different way. So I’m able to kind of transfer that ancient experience in the last couple of years, situations like, y’know, I’ve been involved with two phenomenal writers, artists, science and researchers who wrote the book Your Brain on Art, and when I go and convene with them, I’ll take a section out of the book that speaks about the brain or that speaks about the engagement, and I sing it, and people receive it in a different way.

There is always a little science in the art, and there is always art in the science.

Adatia: Absolutely. I think, Fred, you brought out a very, very interesting thing, and let’s go back to science a little bit. There is always a little science in the art, and there is always art in the science. If it was pure science, for example, I’m a medical doctor, I see patients, if it was pure, pure science exactly translated from the textbooks, I would just have a little robot standing there, feed in your symptoms, just go ahead and put everything that you have, and the robot will analyze that, and then tac-tac-tac, all the medications is going to come out, but does that heal the patient? That is the question. So that healing energy is something what is developed over the years as experience, as reading in between the lines, that’s where this intersection beautifully comes in. After so many years, you sort of develop that art of identifying a particular problem, art of understanding a disease, so science and art has a beautiful, beautiful intersection.

So Fred, as you were talking that in the good old days when they would do this before the meeting, there would be this music or singing, and everybody had to sing in a chorus, everybody had to do it together, because once you are vibrating in that particular frequency or that particular energy, your thoughts, which is a matter, actually also changes. So I sort of become, have that same thought as yours. There is no other way to entrain, which means my mind’s processes are almost the same as your mind’s processes, which means we can come to terms pretty quickly, which means I can make you understand if there is a point of view. There is no distance, there is no separation. So that entrainment is the beauty, which only I strongly feel a music or a dance or a rhythm. I think as you were introducing yourself, you often refer to that rhythm of your breath, rhythm of the heart, rhythm of the body, how many people are conscious and aware enough of that rhythm?

Johnson: A long, long time ago, this one concept was shared with me that I kind of live into and try to live by, and it’s the fact that the longest distance traveled is the distance between the head and the heart. So the beauty now, I believe, of the light that’s illuminating between science, research, and creativity, is that it helps us to traverse that pathway between our thinking, what we think we know and what we feel. We’ll argue with or we’ll have intellectual conversations about what we think we know, but people will not argue with how they’re made to feel. I think one of the opportunities that we have is to more broadly share this conversation with just the general public.

The longest distance traveled is the distance between the head and the heart.

When I first began to have conversations based upon experiences I had had in my life, where I would go into places in the world where communities were in conflict, they were in conflict with each other, but through creating music without word, through creating rhythm, people gave me permission to kind of move with me, and then we began to create sound together. We created a safe space where then people felt more comfortable with being able to share their stories. If we give ourselves permission to really share our stories, I believe that even the frequency of that really connects to the heart, and it’s an important thing. Our largest theater at the Performing Arts Center, it has 2,600 seats, and most of the time we’re sold out. So you think that 2,600 people from different cultural backgrounds, political ideologies, all come together into a shared space with a common intentionality to be entertained, and those 2,600 people come in, and for a minute they let reality go, and they live into this experience, the lights flicker.

Science and research shows us that when the show begins, even the heart coherence, the beating of our hearts become more in alignment with each other. We laugh together, we cry together, we give ourselves permission in that aesthetic realm to really be, again, in a sense of oneness. So if we can more broadly inform folk, and awaken people to the fact that art is not an industry, art is a way of being, creativity is an important part of the cultivation.

Adatia: If I hook up as a scientist, I just take a little cap, what we call the electroencephalogram, like how I have ECG for the heart, I have EEG for the brain, if we all are hooked up, and let’s say Fred is playing, I think that the interesting thing is all of us would have that same modulation of the brainwaves. Let’s just talk about brainwaves a little bit. I call that we live in a beta fired world, which means beta is the fastest rhythm. As I’m talking, as you are listening, what is going on in the brain is beta, beta, beta, beta, it’s all moving, stress, “I want to do this. I want to do that.” The moment I close my eyes, I generate a sinusoidal rhythm, very slow rhythm, 8 to 12 hertz called alpha. As I go a little deeper, just before going to sleep, or possibly in a state of trance or meditation, what music can put us as well, is theta, and when I fall off to sleep is delta.

I call that we live in a beta fired world, which means beta is the fastest rhythm. As I’m talking, as you are listening, what is going on in the brain is beta, beta, beta, beta, it’s all moving, stress.

Now, if I ask, and this has been my regular question to all the listeners across the world, how many minutes do you spend in building this alpha? Most of the times people say, “Oh, I never close my eyes in an entire 24 hours.” When a music is played or a dance performance is there, your brain gets into that mode of theta, and as you rightly mentioned, the heartbeat almost sort of becomes uniform. Your vagus nerve, which is the longest nerve in the body, it’s about the parasympathetic tone, which means it’s a basal tone allowing me to digest well, allowing me to have the restful state in my body, that sort of kicks in. So a good music, I would say transports you from one state of that beta very quickly into the theta, and very, very important to understand is that without modulation of these brain states, what is the purpose of human existence? We would just be continuously doing that same thing and same rut over and over, and then there is stress, there is burnout, there’s all the problems of mental illness.

But there was a study which was done, and as you were talking, that study comes to my mind, when we studied mantras. My lab had the opportunity to study a certain mantra, certain chanting mantra, it’s essentially a Sanskrit word which means mana, mana is mind, and traya which means stakes or transports. So it essentially transports your mind when you chant it in a certain way, in a certain intonation, when you’re changing your vocal cord the way it is sung, the way the music comes in, has all the power to very quickly shift us into that state of theta, into activation of the vagal tone.

And then when many people are chanting, there is amplification, there is amplification of that process, and that is the power, what comes in. Now, when I was in the womb, very interestingly, my mom used to work in a pharmacy lab, and she was into complete science, there was no spirituality, arts or mantra in our house, but she had the opportunity to passively listen to something which we call the Gayatri Mantra. It’s a very simple mantra, which is dedicated to Lord Gayatri, and nine months, all nine months she had the opportunity to listen to that very passively. She wasn’t even aware. Strangely enough, I was born, of course, and I wasn’t talking. Both of my parents were doctors and into medical field, so they wondered, “Oh, my God, the baby is not talking. What should we do?” Two and a half years, three years, now panic. ENT is shown, pediatrician, “What’s going wrong? Neurologist baby is not talking.” They realized that the baby is not listening enough in the house conversations because both are going to job, there’s nobody to take care, that is the reason why the baby is not speaking.

The sound of the mother can actually be heard, and can actually be demonstrated even in the womb.

So they sent me to grandparents’ house, I was all the way sent to a very far off place with my grandparents. Grandparents’ house was all about…there are lots of people, everyday everybody’s talking, and very quickly I learned to speak. After a couple of months I start singing and chanting this particular mantra, and people were surprised that just a little kiddo, and doesn’t even know the meaning, and that mantra, how did that happen? So just imagine the power. We think that a child in the womb is not listening. Now the science says, “Oh, the child very well understands the music and the sound. The sound of the mother can actually be heard, and can actually be demonstrated even in the womb. The touch, a certain type of the touch can be actually understood in the womb.” So all this leads us back to, again, the feeling that sound or rhythm or frequency, a certain type of intonation, the way it is said, definitely has an everlasting physiological power, which can change and shift whatever the state of that person or that being is.

Johnson: Absolutely. I must tell you this story quickly, I was adopted. When I was seven years old, I went with my parents to the RKO Trent Theatre in Trenton, New Jersey to see what was then was a film that was premiering called Carmen Jones. It was the film adaptation of the opera Carmen, and it featured two famous African American artists, Harry Belafonte and Dorothy Dandridge. Before the film started, the announcer said, “Ladies and gentlemen, at the completion of the film, we’re going to take a short 15-minute break and we have a surprise for you. Okay?” I fell asleep on my dad’s lap, and I was awakened to the sound of an orchestra, and the announcer said, “Ladies and gentlemen, the RKO Trent Theatre is proud to present Mr. Nat King Cole.” So Nat King Cole came out on stage and he sang so beautifully, and I was just mesmerized by just the energy in the room. I remember I was on my dad’s lap, and my dad sat up so straight he almost threw me out of his lap. This was a magical thing.

During his performance, Nat King Cole sang the song Nature Boy, and I heard that song Nature Boy, and it was like, “Oh,” it was like, “Oh, my goodness.” I mean, it just touched me in a way, and so all my life I’ve been singing that song, Nature Boy. It’s my favorite song. After 66 years of not knowing who my family is, because of some changes that were made in the state of New Jersey, I was able to be united with my birth family, brothers and sisters that I didn’t know that I had. My mom and dad had already passed away. But one day we were on a phone call together, and a lot of my brothers and sisters can really sing, especially my older brothers and sisters, and so we were talking about songs and stuff, and I said, “Oh man, guys, let me sing this for you,” and I started to sing Nature Boy.

I’m singing Nature Boy, and my older sister started to cry, and I stopped and I said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to upset you,” and she said, “No, Fred, there’s no way that you would know this, but Nature Boy was our mother’s favorite song.” My sister Carlene said, “She probably hummed that song a million times when you were in her belly.” I’m telling you that connection that I had, I mean, I had to have heard, you know what I mean? How is it that I … I had to have had that experience, and it lived with me, the minute I heard it connected. It’s the song that I’ve probably sung all over the world more than any other song without that knowingness, but the minute my sister said that to me I felt something within me, like, “Of course.” So it’s so powerful.

Be conscious of how you speak about yourself, and be conscious of how you speak in the world.

Let me ask you this question, doctor. One of the teachings of the Sankofic mantra tradition that I share from West Africa is based upon the fact that every sound that we make resonates inside of us before it goes out into the world. It’s the whole idea of initially when you begin to chant the mantra, it’s important for you to feel it within you because every organ of the body really feels the frequency and vibration. It’s also based upon this concept of, which kind of broadly a number of faith traditions, and I share this with my students, is be conscious of how you speak about yourself, and be conscious of how you speak in the world. Because like the energy of anger, if we’re angry, and if you’re angry and really espousing and moving through this anger vibrationally, the negative vibration is really resonating inside of you. It’s not going out into the world, it goes through us into the world.

So I wonder, is there a scientific support of the fact that the frequency and vibration of our language, that coupled with kind of the measurable frequency and vibration of our thinking, are they in alignment? Does that have a profound effect upon our personal well-being, and ultimately maybe kind of the collective energy of the spaces that we’re in?

Adatia: Beautiful question. Beautiful question. So answer, very short answer is yes. I think you talked about anger. See, there are three kinds of brains that we harbor. As I’m talking to you also there is a brainstem, which is breathing, I’m living, my heart is beating, I’m alive because of that brainstem. If I go a little up, there is something called the limbic system, also called the emotional system. It is sort of the rudimentary system from the reptilians as we evolved in the brain’s journey, but this is a very important system to keep us safe, psychologically alive, psychologically protected, so there’s always this sense of, “Am I protecting myself?” In the good old days, there used to be tigers and lions, so the tendency for it is, “Let me be protected. Let me be safe.” Then, of course there is fight, flight, fear, freeze, the common things that we keep hearing from that limbic system.

Also, all the emotions of anger, jealousy, love, whatever you call it, positive or negative valence stems from that, and then there is this prefrontal cortex or the frontal cortex, which is about modulation. It is about emotional modulation. It is about discrimination between good and bad. It is about attuned communication. I really like that word attuned communication. It is sort of the seat of that humanness. Now what is happening is we do not understand this evolutionary perspective of the brain. Most people are stuck in this emotional limbic rut or the loop, so whenever somebody says something, I take it to my heart and I get hurt. Whenever there’s something happening, I close myself down. I’m always in either the state of doubt, fear, anger, jealousy, which means it is essentially the limbic system, or the brain’s emotional system which is firing.

The moment I evolve myself into that prefrontal cortex, I start to see world from a very different perspective. My entire offering to the world changes if I’m using a certain sound, if I’m using a certain frequency.

Now the moment I reach to a certain level of that prefrontal cortex kicking in first, before my emotions are reacted out, I don’t respond, I react, and I now want to shift to response. I now want to modulate that, the reason behind that anger. I want to now modulate my response in a way which is not hurting to the self, not hurting to the others, and the moment I evolve myself into that prefrontal cortex, I start to see world from a very different perspective. My entire offering to the world changes if I’m using a certain sound, if I’m using a certain frequency, if I’m using a certain way of simple humming, I mean humming bee technique is a very, very simple, effective and powerful technique for just the health and well-being of people, all you are doing is you’re humming like a humming bee, but the very interesting thing is that humming bee is very different for you, and humming bee is very different for me because it is very unique to my frequency make.

There are studies who have suggested that if you passively listen to that humming bee sound at night, you can fall off to sleep faster, and that would be only with your own humming. So that frequency is sort of where your brain’s processes or your body’s processes are attuned with, so answer is definitely yes. I think the world needs to now be a little bit taking a step back, try to enhance the power of this prefrontal cortex through the use of the mantras, through the use of chants, through the use of music, through the use of different techniques, which are modulating the brain’s performances, because finally, end of the day, we all want to be happy. You live in America, I live in Dubai, or anybody across the world, fundamentally or denominator-wise, our demands is not different, we all need happiness, which is almost perpetual 24/7. I don’t want two hours of happiness, that, “Okay, I’m good for two hours, and then I’m all right without it.” So we all want that everlasting happiness, that feeling of peace within, that feeling of bliss, so that is what it gives.

Talasek: This kind of reminds me of what you said at the beginning of this conversation, that we have a perception that this is about entertainment, and this entire conversation underscores that it’s so much more. So I’d like to kind of turn the conversation deeper into that and ask you, how do we apply this to health and well-being, and what do we need to do? I know there’s barriers to clinical practice. How does this get implemented? I know that Fred has worked with the National Endowment for the Arts through a program called Creative Forces, that works with people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. How do we push this forward? What are the barriers that we need to overcome in order to really apply this information, this knowledge to the health and well-being for our societies, our communities?

Adatia: Absolutely. So I have a very simple formula, it’s called aware, care, and dare. I think the very first thing, it starts with being aware, that these are the conversations which make people aware that there is much more than the entertainment that we are talking about. There’s much more to the science of music, there’s much more to the arts of music, so we need to make people aware, and then it is our responsibility to care for it together. I, coming from a mainstream allopathic practice should not be blinded, should not say that, “Oh, this is very distinct and different, and I do not intend to adapt to my clinical practice.” So somewhere there has to be an integrative openness or open-mindedness so that we can break these barriers, and I can say, “Okay, let’s play a certain type of music, which Fred can bring in for my patient of attention deficit.” Because in that attention deficit hyperactivity, the brain’s sort of beta is firing, the theta is very high, there’s a big change in the brain, which I want to make it happen. Let’s just try and bring in Fred’s music.

Sound is universal. There is no your sound or my sound, it’s just one unanimous single sound which can make the difference.

So something where we care about, and then, of course, we will have to dare to come together as a research community, collaborate together for such work, and then have also evidence backed. I think most of these studies or trials lack the entire rigor of what a typical trial goes through. A very rigorous clinical trial would have a control, and then are sham-controlled, et cetera, so I think what is required is let’s join hands and collaborate and work together. However, however, even anecdotes are good enough to start with. In my practice I have had people pushed into, let’s say, I would say to them that, “Why don’t you try this?” I think more and more of awareness, availability, trying out these new things, and applying by individual people slowly, and then I think as Fred was mentioning, 2,600 full seats people, this is absolutely interesting and amazing, that everybody can connect to that simple language of sound. Sound is universal. There is no your sound or my sound, it’s just one unanimous single sound which can make the difference.

Johnson: I think this is really at the core of the work that I’m trying to do as artist-in-residence, is to, imagine with me, if you will, that artists, creatives, musicians, choreographers, the full measure of the art world really begins to enfold and understand this, and so with intentionality, and the knowledge and knowingness, the support that we have to begin. Yes, even in clinical settings, absolutely, and just in general, to begin to create works of art, to begin to infuse that knowingness in what we do because, again, ultimately, people will not argue with how they feel. If we can help them to know that while you’re feeling this, while you’re feeling this release, valuable and important natural elements of your brain, of your body chemistry is helping you to heal, helping you to feel whole, the universal. One of the things that I try to do often in every presentation I do is people end up singing together.

One of the things that I try to do often in every presentation I do is people end up singing together.

It’s really, really funny when I have created an experience in a group of people that are made up of artists and scientists, and when a researcher hears some of their valuable information coming back at people through song, it’s like you can feel their eyes light up. It’s like there is this unity of knowingness and understanding, so there is a shift and it’s not an either or, it’s kind of a yes, and. It’s the opportunity to recognize that this journey of creativity is an important thing, and to the degree that … I remember listening to one of your lectures, and I think the question that was asked was with a mantra, do you have to understand it? Do you have to know what that means? Your response was, “No, it’s the frequency of it, and the energy of the intentionality.” It’s important for us to feel, acknowledge, and love the fact that the vibration of our own voice is one of our greatest connectors to health, and wholeness, and healing.

Adatia: I often quote an example of going to the nature. The moment I walk in, I listen to the sounds of the sea. The moment I listen to the wind, which is blowing, it is calming me down. Why it should calm me down? Because it has that almost instant effect on my brain’s physiology, with that little alpha which kicks in, but that sort of a feeling of that would give me that instant connection. I think there’s lots to learn from the sounds of nature.

Johnson: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I’ve been doing lately is doing collaborations between artists. For instance, we’ll invite people to give us words or concepts, things that they’re thinking about. From those words and concepts, we then create music, and take their words and create it into lyric, while at the same time someone is painting and just reacting, reacting to what they’re hearing and what they’re feeling in the music, and that becomes then a visual experience, and then someone else is creating movement. It’s all borne out of this collective way of expressing. We know that people learn, some people learn auditorily, some people are visual, well, the same thing exists in terms of our coming into a common place, experiencing the commonplace of oneness.

Talasek: Thinking about creating something, as we’re coming to a close, thinking about creating that. I wonder if you could both articulate what that would look like. Imagining the future, I’m asking you to sort of look into the crystal ball, and imagine if we were able to successfully bring forth all the things that you both discussed today into the future, what would that look like for us as we come to a close?

How do we translate into the action which can have a generational impact? I never think small. I always feel that something which has to move, has to move mountains.

Adatia: Thank you, J.D. I think very, very important is whatever we have been talking, we are talking from our sheer experience, both from the artist and from the science, but how do we translate this? I always am a fan of benchside to bedside, how do we know all of this, but how do we translate into the action which can have a generational impact? I never think small. I always feel that something which has to move, has to move mountains. So getting grassroot, going back to the kids, going back from 8 to 17 year olds, making that change when the brain is in that state of neuroplasticity, in that state where growth is the most. I feel that giving all of these things that we were talking about, the knowledge of the sound, knowledge of frequency, of music, of art, of transforming that art and integration of science, if we start early, then the taste sort of goes on to develop.

Then when you sort of mature and adults, even if you didn’t know the meaning of that particular chant, or if you didn’t know the meaning of that particular sound or frequency, it will come back to you many years later. So my strongest recommendation, even if there is anybody in the policy, or anybody who’s listening across the world who is looking for something practical, is to let us have 8 to 17 year olds as a proper structured curriculum, start to have all of this infused early. I always say the meaning of the word doctor is not to treat, it is not to heal, it is actually to dossier, which means to teach. I always am thankful to take up such a role where I can teach people what is the power and how we can all make this happen.

Johnson: As the artist, to be a purveyor of the integration, to serve, to expand the voice, to create experiences, to take that experience from 8 to 17, which is foundationally reawakening us to the full measure of our potential, and as creatives, to then begin to create experiences and opportunities for people to know and understand. My thing is, is that my role is to continually traverse that path between the head and the heart, and to create actualized experiences so that people can feel, while at the same time knowing that not only am I having a joyful experience, not only am I moving my body, not only am I elevating my voice, but together we’re creating a synergy of body, mind, and spirit that will manifest itself ultimately through this beautiful emergence of our minds, and our bodies, and our trust, and the diversity of our beingness.

We’re only limited by our ability to imagine and manifest it, and that there are real and important outcomes that we can both feel and know, and then ultimately the world changes.

Ultimately, when all is said and done, that this conversation will be a common conversation that is had throughout the world, with an understanding that we’re only limited by our ability to imagine and manifest it, and that there are real and important outcomes that we can both feel and know, and then ultimately the world changes. We change how we are with each other, we’re healthier, and the possibilities are just endless. It’s such an incredible honor to be with you, Dr. Sweta. I can’t begin to tell you.

Adatia: Same here, Fred. Same here, and J.D. as well.

Talasek: This has been such an amazing conversation. Thank you both for bringing your life experiences, and your knowledge in medicine, and science, and in arts, and in performance. To our audience, thank you for being here, and thank you for joining Ongoing Transformation.

To learn more about the impact of music on the brain and how art can create connections and community, visit our show notes.

Please subscribe to The Ongoing Transformation wherever you get your podcast, and write to us at podcast@issues.org. The Music and Health miniseries is produced in collaboration with Susan Magsamen, and with Leonardo Journal. Thanks to our podcast producer, Kimberly Quach, and our audio engineer, Shannon Lynch. I’m J.D. Talasek, director of Cultural Programs of the National Academy of Sciences. Thanks for listening.